Episode 4: A Private Affair
Another deportation attempt is made, but this time, more people are following their story. Supporters drop what they are doing and dash to the airport to help. Campaigners jump the fence and get arrested. Nevertheless, the family are separated and forced onto a plane. But an urgent injunction is granted mid-flight, and forces the plane to land in Darwin. Rather than fly them back to Melbourne detention, the Nadesalingams are flown to a detention centre on a remote offshore territory of Australia, a detention centre that has not been in use for over 4 years.
The government spent $27 million dollars in 2019 reopening this facility to detain four people. It is in this facility that both Priya and Tharnicaa faced significant health issues. So with the amount of money going into these detention centres, why are conditions so poor? And why is nothing happening to fix it?
Media
Resources
Key Resources
Check out Campaign Bae’s twitter feed to get a sense of what it was like at Melbourne Airport on the day of the attempted deportation.
Border Surveillance affects us all. Find out how!
Oxfam Australia commissioned Deloitte Access Economics to analyse the economic and social impact an expanded refugee program may have on Australia’s economy and society. Check out their findings here.
Want to know what our government’s contract with SERCO looks like? Grab a vino - it’s a long ass read.
The current SERCO contract which expires in December 2023 is worth $4 billion dollars. Yeah we’re serious :/
Other References
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/after-10-years-the-notorious-christmas-island-detention-centre-has-quietly-closed-20181004-p507r0.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxGRccNUZPo&t=45s&ab_channel=SkyNewsAustralia
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/aug/31/biloela-tamil-asylum-seeker-family-moved-to-christmas-island
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/four-to-a-bed-and-escorted-by-guards-biloela-family-describes-tough-year-on-christmas-island/bs3icxqws
https://7news.com.au/news/immigration/tamil-family-in-detention-on-christmas-island-costing-taxpayers-30-million-c-516331
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7598909/Tamil-family-costing-Australian-taxpayers-30MILLION.html
https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/foi/files/2017/FA161000977-documents-released.pdf
https://www.tenders.gov.au/Cn/Show/f166d1f4-fb57-e37b-3f63-5b399f4c3244
https://www.tenders.gov.au/Cn/Show/?Id=fb607148-3915-4965-a068-d0decb81ecf5
https://www.smh.com.au/national/serco-drops-ban-on-coloured-pencils-and-crayons-for-asylum-seeker-children-20120106-1pogh.html
https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/foi/files/2017/FA161000977-documents-released.pdf
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/12/australia-will-spend-almost-34m-for-each-person-in-offshore-detention-budget-shows
https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahryan/christmas-island-detention-staff-biloela
https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7873m/how-the-dollar68-billion-border-surveillance-industrial-complex-affects-us-all
https://www.adventinternational.com/advent-completes-4-billion-takeover-of-cobham/
https://www.tni.org/en/publication/financing-border-wars
https://www.kaldorcentre.unsw.edu.au/publication/cost-australias-asylum-policy
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/19/revealed-doctors-outrage-over-unsafe-refugee-patients
https://www.smh.com.au/national/doctors-plead-for-authorities-to-reunite-tharnicaa-with-her-family-20210613-p580mn.html
Transcript
Thinesh
Hi friends, just a warning that this episode talks about deportation, and detention, and there are a couple of swears. Please take care whilst listening to this episode.
Jay
August 2019. It’s a normal Thursday for Priya, Nades, Kopika and Tharnicaa, except their normal has become being held in a detention centre in Melbourne.
Thinesh
One night, the family are just eating dinner like they always do when…
Nades
Suddenly all these people came. They took Priya in one direction, the kids in another, whilst my fingers were still covered in food. They asked me to wash my hands. I said, “what’s going on?” They said, "you are going to return your country".
Thinesh
The family had an appeal that was rejected by the high court a few months earlier, which meant that all of Priya’s legal avenues were exhausted. Tharnicaa is the only one who has any sort of legal avenues, but she’s still subject to this bar which prevents any visa applications. All they can do is request that the minister lifts this bar so an application can be made for Tharnicaa.
Jay
Instead, the family are being deported. Again.
Deportation audio
Let’s go, you’re going to go. Come. Come on.
Yeah, my baby crying why?
Your baby’s not crying.
Priya
Two people grabbed my arms. They wouldn’t let my kids come to me. They took Nades to a separate room, they dragged me and tried to force me into a vehicle. As I was dragged, my pants had slipped off. They wouldn't even let go of my hands to pull my pants up.
Thinesh
Priya video calls Vashini, a friend from Biloela who she had been in touch with pretty much everyday.
Vashini Riswan
Kopika was screaming and Priya, Priya was crying. And I was, I was like, what's happening? What's happening this they said, like, you know, they suddenly came, and they said, they're gonna take us to the airport, and they're gonna deport us. I was watching everything because I need to do report like killed what's happening to Simone.
Thinesh
And so she dials in Simone, the legal friend who taught Nades English in Biloela.
Jay
So now they’re both on a video call with Priya.
Simone Cameron
I could see these people in the background, and then all of a suddenly the penny just dropped, and yeah It was absolute panic stations then.
Nades
We were telling Simone everything that was happening, where we were going, how I was in one vehicle and Priya was in another. We were taking videos as proof and sending it to Simone. Simone said to not worry, that she would speak to a lawyer and do whatever is necessary to get the stay order. “Just be strong.” She said “you will not return to your country.” She promised, “You will return to Biloela”.
Thinesh
Vashini, Simone and the team start to mobilise. You’ve got these photos and videos that Priya and Nades are sending that are being distributed to media and social media, and
Angela Fredericks
We were on the flight trackers to work out where you know which airport.
Thinesh
This is Angela, the main spokesperson of the campaign.
Angela Fredericks
When anyone hears the word or, you know, deportation is live, people are just like, well, we don't have time to plan or to discuss, we need to just go.
Thinesh
And some of the people who turn up are trying to stop the plane.
Jay
Like, literally?
Thinesh
Yeah, like go to the airport and do whatever they can. Here’s Nic Dorward, who was the change.org campaign bae for this campaign at the time.
Nic Dorward
I was just about to bite into a taco when Ang called me and she just said, "I hope this is not an imposition." So, she's always so unbelievably polite, but she just told me it was happening. And she just asked me to, if I could…
Angela Fredericks
Just get to a airport.
Nic Dorward
… which I did. There was information just flying around. Flying around in group chats. In like all the way over, across multiple airfields, I could just see one big, unmarked, white plane. And I was like, "That's got to be it."
Thinesh
Nic directs his Uber driver to the Serco headquarters, the company that helps run the detention centres in Australia.
Nic Dorward
…and there was a car there and inside that car was a man and a woman in the front seat. And that man was Aran from the Tamil refugee council. And that woman was his wife.
Aran Mylvaganam
So, I ran to the airport, told my wife, get to the airport, and alerted other people in the community as well.
Nic Dorward
And we said, "Hello." Got in the car and we drove to where the plane was. And at that stage there were already some folks, and it was this phenomenally Motley crew and we were just there by the wire fence, looking out onto the airport where we could see the plane and see some people coming and going off the plane.
Jay
There’s photos and videos of this online, people are less than 200 meters from the aircraft separated by a chain-link fence. They’re there with candles lit and signs being held chanting “let them stay”
Aran Mylvaganam
It was chaotic. I come from a war zone. To me, when you're bombed and you're fleeing that in a panic, you're fleeing that situation. It was similar to that. You know, we were all looking for this family, you know, just like you would be looking for your loved one in a war zone, you know.
Nic Dorward
…and more and more people started to stream in including journalists, like TV crews were arriving and lots of information was flying around.
Thinesh
Whilst all this is happening, you have the family’s lawyer, Carina Ford, trying to find a way to prevent this deportation. She works with the family’s barrister on this because you can’t obtain an injunction just because you don’t want someone removed.
Carina Ford
There has to be a legal reason behind it, or a process has not been done right. That was our first step and it really related to whether or not the process for removal had been followed correctly. As it turns out, it hadn't been.
Jay
But this is like, after business hours, right? Who is going to attend to something so urgently?
Thinesh
There are these people called duty judges, who are there for urgent matters just like this.
Carina Ford
They're on call and that's part of their job, because the reality is it does happen in this area.
Thinesh
So there’s this injunction that they’re rushing to put through, but meanwhile, at Tullamarine airport, you have media and supporters gathering.
Simone Cameron
They had so much time sitting around actually, just waiting for everything that was going to unfold.
Jay
Wait, why all this sitting around? What’s with all the delays?
Priya
Nades and the kids had been put on the plane already, but I refused to leave the vehicle and board the plane for over an hour. They tried to force me off the vehicle, at which point the media, who had also gathered outside, had taken photos of them trying to drag me out. They then tried to push me back in, causing me to fall headfirst. They slammed the door on my leg.
Jay
Wow - so the guards are trying to keep her out of the media and Priya is aiding boarding the plane…?
Thinesh
Pretty much.
Priya
Because the way they manhandled me, I was adamant that I should not leave this vehicle.
Thinesh
She holds off until they force her out. They grab her and carry Priya onto the plane.
Priya
Usually when we are taken onto a plane, body cams are only used until we enter it. Once inside, the body cams are turned off. Inside the plane, they can do anything to us and no-one would know. They wrapped my arms around the back of the seat to subdue me and pressed my arms very tightly. They treated me like a baby chicken ready to be slaughtered. One guard thought I was too feisty. He shoved my arms into the seat with so much force that it broke my watch.
The guards shoved me, they hurt me. They sought out every possible weak point on my body and used it to their advantage to force me into the seat. At this point I fainted. As Nades was shouting and the kids were crying, I didn't know where I was for about 10 minutes. It was after this, as my child continued to cry that I pleaded with the guards to give her to me so I could soothe her and then give her to her father. But they refused me.
As Nades was shouting, and the kids were crying. I didn’t know where I was for about 10 minutes. It was after this as my child continued to cry, that I pleaded with the guards to please giver her to me so I could soothe her and then give her to her father. But they refused me.
Thinesh
Both Serco and the Department of Home Affairs deny Priya, was inappropriately handled, during any transport and escort tasks, or that she was not allowed to tend to her children.
Jay
Right, okay, so she’s saying they force her to board, what next?
Simone Cameron
I just remember saying to Nades, "You have to send us the details of your family in Sri Lanka. We will make contact."
Thinesh
They had this as a contingency plan already.
Simone Cameron
But I do remember thinking, "This is it now." And as Vashini and I heard the Serco guard say to Nades, "You need to turn your phone off now, the plane is taking off soon." All of a sudden, his screen just went blank.
Aran Mylvaganam
We were helplessly watching the plane take off.
Nic Dorward
A circle of people... They formed this circle and they just started to pray. And I started crying.
Vashini Riswan
I just froze I don't know what I'm doing.
Angela Fredericks
And I can remember hearing Isabel, Simone's daughter in the background. I could hear her sobbing like she just let out this anguished sob.
Simone Cameron
And then we got off the phone, and about two minutes later, I had a phone call from a different group member who said the lawyers have got the injunction.
Carina Ford
We managed to get in contact with a judge through the court to then grant an injunction.
Simone Cameron
I said, "It's too late, the plane's gone." And she said, "No, no. The lawyers said that plane will come down, they'll bring the plane down at Darwin, and they will take the family off."
Thinesh
And just as promised, the plane lands in Darwin.
Priya
When we landed in Darwin, they got us off the plane and took us to airport accommodation. My kids asked me for food. They were starving after the long journey. I only had the bottles of water that were given to me on the plane which I gave to the kids. I told them to drink it and that we would eat in the morning.
Thinesh
The family get a bit of sleep in Darwin, but meanwhile…
Aran Mylvaganam
I was just looking through my phone, seeing who do I know in Darwin. And then I remembered Iyngaran.
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
So I just went to the airport with the intention of trying to get a signature.
Thinesh
This is Iyngaran. Now keep in mind he doesn’t know the family yet but is Tamil himself.
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
It was like 2 o’clock in the morning.
Jay
So, he’s just out here at 2 in the morning trying to prevent this family he doesn’t know from being sent back to Sri Lanka.
Thinesh
And someone sees Iyngaran’s Facebook post about this and tells him where the government usually houses people near the airport.
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
And so that's kind of how I ended up wandering down that way. So there there's these set of demountables at the back. And I saw a bunch of people milling around on one of the verandas. The lights are on and I thought it was a bit unusual. Why would hotel staff necessarily be up at this time?
This is probably 3, 4 o’clock by now, in the morning. And I think the first thing that might have tipped me off was I heard one of these people in uniform speaking to a young child, clearly a young girl. And I could hear them talking about Paw Patrol.
Jay
Ready for a ruff ruff rescue.
Thinesh
He confirms this is the family, and just sort of waits around until morning.
Thinesh
Just after midday, the injunction has now been extended, which confirms family can’t be deported yet. The crowd that had formed in Darwin starts to thin out.
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
And it was one of the press photographers, um, came around. I think he'd been standing at the back of the donger, where you could be right next to it, and said, "It looks like they're moving. The Family. Like they’ve taken them out onto the veranda."
Priya
SERCO shoved us into another room, and they grabbed our phones. I told them, “you can have our phones, but give me a chance to speak to our lawyer and tell our family before you take our phones.” They said this is not possible because we were going to a government-owned area.
I said, fine whatever, keep the phone. What are they going to, kill us? Kidnap us? So I just let them have the phone. I didn't have the energy to fight. My hands were all ripped up from the previous day's ordeals, I had dried blood clotted underneath the skin, and my body was swollen to the size of two people. I wasn't in the mood to fight. They had worn me down so much. I just couldn’t.
Thinesh
The family are loaded into a vehicle, which leaves around a back entrance. Iyngaran follows them in another vehicle, back to the airport just 1 kilometre up the road.
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
But yeah, so the vans had pulled up to the gate. So okay, I got to go out. I can't just sit here in the car. I ran out and started filming. And then I walked up to the white van, which is quite symbolic for Tamils because white vans are what government officials often use in abductions in Sri Lanka. And there's a really strong, fearful association with them. And there, the first person I saw, was Nades sitting in the back seat and he's waving to me. I was really surprised. He was kind of smiling. Ah then, I could peer in and I could see Priya. She was leaning back waving.
Priya
Nades managed use hand gestures to tell him that we were okay and that they were trying to take us somewhere.
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
And then I went back to Nades, and he was talking to me and I couldn't hear him through the window. And so I just instinctively, all I could think to say was, "We are with you. We are with you. We will fight for you."
Priya
We didn't know that Iyangaran was Tamil or that he was trying to keep up with us because we didn’t know him. We thought he was a local aboriginal person that was taking photos of us.
Thinesh
The van drives onto the tarmac and away to a large military base. Iyngaran loses sight of them and doesn’t know what else he can do, so he goes home.
Priya and Nades say that they are briefly given access to their phones and tell their friends and supporters where they are.
Simone Cameron
So we were like, it must be okay. And then we all go to sleep. We hadn't slept at all the night before. So we all go to sleep.
Jay
It feels like the storm has calmed. Like they’re in a military facility, they can’t be deported because of the urgent injunction, and everyone has sort of dispersed and tentatively gone to rest after being awake for over 30 hours.
Thinesh
Which also makes it the perfect time to move the family again, without phone access of course.
Priya
That evening around 7pm, we were driven to the airport, with one military vehicle in front and another behind us.
Nades
I asked them 'where are we going?', They said they didn't know.
Thinesh
The family are boarded onto another plane that leaves Darwin.
Priya
After about two and half hours of travel, an immigration official told us that we had another two hours or so until we land.
Jay
Wait, where in Australia are they taking them that’s more than four hours away from Darwin? Even flying to Adelaide from there is only three and a half hours.
Thinesh
To one of Australia’s remote, external territories.
Priya
I asked where we were landing and they told us we were being taken to Christmas Island.
Jay
Isn’t this back where it all started for the family? The same soil Nades first landed on, and the same island Priya was hastily moved to when she first arrived.
Thinesh
Exactly, and they’re moved into a facility that been effectively closed for almost a year.
Jay
So, they reopen a facility just for this family.
Thinesh
Peter Dutton even says it is in the interest of the family’s safety that they stay on Christmas Island.
Jay
So, you’d think if it’s for their safety, their health would be taken care of.
Titles
You Have Been Told a Lie. To stop the deportation of a Tamil family. Let them in, let them stay. Protecting Australia’s borders, hypocrisy. Detained on Christmas Island. The United Nations Convention on Refugee’s. This is our Country. We are a generous open-hearted people.
Jay
I’m Jay Ooi.
Thinesh
I’m Thinesh Thillainadarajah.
Jay
This is episode 4, A Private Affair.
It’s now the morning of 31st of August 2019. After an all nighter, many of the family’s supporters have just awoken to the news that the family have been moved to Christmas Island overnight.
Angela Fredericks
And the disbelief that they'd been sent offshore.
Simone Cameron
And I haven't thought this way too many times in the past four years. But just thinking, oh, this government, they're just too big. They're too big and they're too powerful. It doesn't matter what we do. They're always going to have something to come back with.
Priya
They got us off the plane around midnight. When we landed on Christmas Island, we were disoriented. There were no lights on at the airport. We were put into vehicles and they took us to a detention centre that had been closed 5 years earlier. The one that we were put in when we arrived to Australia.
Jay
Wow, I’m guessing the government didn’t plan on using this facility so soon, I mean they probably thought they would successfully deport the family. I can’t imagine this facility is in good nick.
Angela Fredericks
It was half reminiscent of a childcare center, but still, you know, gates and wire fencing.
Priya
When we arrived there, it had an old smell, it had ripped bedsheets on bunk beds. It was a very small room. It is not a place for children to live.
Nades
The night we were taken there, Priya and Tharnicaa were on the lower bunk bed, Kopika and I were on the top bunk.
Priya
The bunk beds were small. We had each child sleeping on each level, and we would only be able to sit with them. We could not really sleep because of how small the bed was.
Jay
It’s like going from one shitty detention centre to another, like, they just can’t catch a break.
Thinesh
But when Angela hears about it, she immediately books a flight to visit the family.
Angela Fredericks
Which is a huge journey. From central Queensland, it really made me see just what lengths the government was willing to do to make this family disappear.
Thinesh
Remember that Christmas Island is geographically closer to Malaysia and Indonesia than mainland Australia, so it’s a long trip for Angela.
Jay
Now I’m guessing Angela had to go through a similar application process like when people visit other detention centres.
Thinesh
Yeah, but remember, this detention centre hadn’t been in use, so…
Angela Fredericks
At that point in time, you actually couldn't put Christmas Island detention facility as a place to visit. It actually wasn't on the list, because it wasn't being used.
Thinesh
Angela brought all her paperwork with her but was initially denied entry.
Angela Fredericks
Like, I was literally just... I have come all the way from central Queensland. I just want to give them a hug.
Thinesh
But Angela was also there with some media.
Jay
Ah! And it’s definitely not a good look to stop someone from wanting to give a hug to their friends, especially after the media frenzy around this family.
Angela Fredericks
So, they went in and they made some calls. And then, they did, they allowed me to go in, obviously, without media.
Thinesh
Angela and Priya see each other…
Angela Fredericks
… and we both just started crying.
Priya
I believed in God. but I felt God for the first time when I saw Angela's face. It's as if she had all of Biloela’s love and sorrows with her when we met on Christmas Island.
Angela had travelled 21 hours, or 27 hours with waiting time accounted for, to get to Christmas Island to see us. It was a memory that I will never forget.
Angela Fredericks
We just sat and held each other, and it was just, we're here, we're here. You know, you're not alone. We're going to get through this.
Nades
She travelled so far to see us. Truthfully, it felt like we were seeing god face to face. They say you can’t see god directly, but you can see god through human forms. She came to see us even when she was not in her best health. We were delighted to see her.
Angela had said "do not worry Nades and Priya. You will return to Biloela.' This is the one thing they would always say, 'Have faith, we will not let go of you'. Whether it was Simone or Angela, or Margot, they would always say this.
Thinesh
And Angela even visits a second time and brings Vashini with her.
Vashini Riswan
It was a very emotional trip. Going back to Christmas Island because I was, I was in that Christmas Island before and then Priya was staying in the camp where I stayed as well.
Jay
Wow, this Biloela community really is something special. I guess the crowd funded campaign must be doing well.
Thinesh
It is, but Angela is self-funding all of these visits. And one thing she quickly realised was how difficult it is to get messages off the island.
Angela Fredericks
I couldn't send photos back to the mainland from my phone, like it was a 2G network. And we very much were aware that that's why the family were sent there.
Nades
We facetimed and texted with our community in Biloela, so the public were finding out what was happening to us. To cut off our connection, they took us Christmas Island.
Thinesh
But one thing about Christmas Island is that it’s tiny.
Jay
Yeah, it’s population is like less than 2000 people 1400 people.
Thinesh
Which means you can’t really sneak things past the locals.
Priya
The regular Virgin flights would arrive twice a week, on a Tuesday or a Friday, or it would be a cargo flight bringing supplies that the community would be notified of via email. People would know when it was a border force plane. So they knew something was up.
Robyn
One day there was a local school assembly that I attended.
Thinesh
This is Robyn, a long time Christmas Island local, but originally from WA.
Robyn
I looked over and there were new people because the whole community goes to the assembly. And so, it was within a week of them arriving on Christmas Island.
And so, I went over and introduced myself and introduced my daughters and said, "This is my phone number." I wrote it down, "This is my name. This is my phone number. This is my email. Please request a visit from us. We will request a visit for you." My daughters had already written a letter to Border Force asking for a play date.
Jay
It’s like, everywhere the family go, there are community members who see the cruelty and injustice of it all, and just want to support them.
Thinesh
Yeah, and Robyn ends up getting to visit the family, but visits would take place in an external facility, a recreational centre, because she says the detention centre was deemed “not suitable” for her children to be in.
Jay
…. even though there are literally two kids living there.
Robyn
I was told I was allowed to bring in food, so I tried to cook Sri Lankan curry, which was hilarious. It was so much a whitewashed Sri Lankan curry, it's not funny. Like, you know, came in having all this food and Priya sat there trying to eat it going, "mmmm…..Yes."
Jay:
Laughs. I love that. I love that.
Robyn
But we laugh about it now. She said it was the whitest curry she's ever had. She said to me, "From now on, we will cook the food." And so, every week she would cook and it tasted a hell of a lot better than mine.
Thinesh
Robyn ends up visiting the family almost every weekend for the next 92 weeks, with a couple of other locals also visiting.
Robyn
But this was the only time they got to sit across from someone and hold their hand or get a cuddle or talk about things.
Thinesh
And these visits gave the family some support. We asked Serco about this and they said, the family were able to leave their accommodation daily as per their program and activity schedule, which they say the family had significant input into. But they’re still stuck in detention whilst trying to give their kids a normal life.
Nades
I would play with them and that was my life. I would pretend to be Kopika's age and play with them. I
Priya
Kopika would ask, Amma I want Strawberries. I want grapes. I want this. I want that. What was I to do? It was very hard. All the other kids would have normal lives, but our two girls would have a very difficult one. It broke our hearts as parents. There was no joy.
Thinesh
They were pretty much never left alone. The department says that a Serco guard presence is in the interest of the family’s security and safety.
Angela Fredericks
I remember one of my visits, I was sitting on the ground singing songs with the girls, and you just had this man sitting in a corner on a chair watching you. And for me, I've worked in child protection, I've worked in vulnerable settings, and oh, that felt something so wrong about that, about children being watched while they're playing.
Nades
At minimum there were 10 SERCO guards in our immediate area looking after us.
Priya
The word 'difficult' doesn't even begin to capture our experience in the following months. If we needed to do laundry, we needed to be escorted, if we needed to get clothes, we needed to be escorted. If we needed to go to school, 4 SERCO guards would come with us. If we needed to go Hospital, 4 SERCO guards would come with us. We felt embarrassed to be treated like criminals.
Jay
All of these guards constantly monitoring the family, and it’s a facility they had to re-open for them, like they would have had to staff a whole new location just for them. I can’t imagine that would have been very cost effective.
Thinesh
It’s not cheap at all, in fact it costs Australian taxpayers almost $20,000 a day to keep them there, racking up a bill of almost $30 million to reopen this facility and house this family for just their first couple months.
Jay
Wait, I’m sorry what? $30 million for just a couple months? $20,000 a day? That is SO much money. I mean with $30 million you could, I dunno, buy over 15,000 iPhone 14 Pro Max’s.
Thinesh
Of course, that is where your mind would go to. Such an Apple Fanboy. But how about if you donated it to UNICEF, you could provide a year’s worth of food vouchers for breastfeeding mums in Sri Lanka for over 270,000 mums.
Jay
270,000 mums! Or, what about, you could cover the cost of a house in Biloela, plus a family’s jobseeker payments for over 900 years.
Thinesh
900 years. Holy shit.
Jay
It’s just SO much money. Why would it cost this much to keep this family detained?
Thinesh
Because there’s money to be made Jay!
Jay
What do you mean? More like money to be lost!
Thinesh
Well, one thing that Australia is a bit of a pioneer of, is privatising our detention centres.
Sara Dehm
It was really only with the election of the Howard government, from 1996 onwards that the Australian government moved towards a policy of privatization of immigration detention.
Thinesh
This is Dr Sara Dehm
Sara Dehm
I'm a lecturer at UTS in the faculty of law, and I go by the pronouns; she/her.
Jay
So, what does it mean for detention centres to be privatised?
Thinesh
It just means instead of the government running these centres, they have contracts with a private company essentially to do it for them.
Jay
So the nearly $20,000 a day for the Nadesalingam family is perhaps a private company saying hey, here’s how much it will cost to keep the family detained.
Thinesh
Something like that.
Sara Dehm
So, a key trend I think that we see at that time is that the running of Australia's immigration detention network becomes a really lucrative and profitable activity for these big multinational corporations.
Thinesh
Now the government currently has a contract with SERCO to help run all of our different types of detention centres in Australia, and it’s massive.
Sara Dehm
So basically for a seven or eight-year period, the Australian government is paying just under, I guess $4 billion to run Australia's detention network, which I think is around 10 immigration detention facilities in Australia.
Jay:
What is the issue with a detention centre being run by a company that has a profit motive? What does that lead to?
Sara Dehm
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think it leads to the company treating people in immigration detention as commodities that are part of its business activity. So even though the corporation, so in Serco's case, does have a contractual obligation to the Australian government to treat people fairly and humanely, that obligation is owed to the Australian government rather than to the people that it detains in immigration detention.
Jay
Right, so it’s like, the obligation to the government is there, but if you don’t meet what’s in your contract, it’s not the end of the world for you as a private company. But then, the people who are actually detained suffer, like their welfare may not trump all the objectives the private company has, one of which is profit.
Thinesh
And there have been so many human rights concerns because of this. SERCO have been known to ban crayons for kids, or refer to detainees literally by their ID number.
Jay
So who is actually responsible for the people in detention? It’s like the three spider-mans pointing at each other meme - are you responsible?
Thinesh
Ultimately it is the government, but SERCO in their contract “acknowledges and agrees that it has a duty of care to detainees”. The problem though, is even in circumstances where the private company doesn’t perform, like we saw in the 2012 independent review on SERCO, their contract was still extended instead of it going out to tender again. Plus,
Sara Dehm
I mean, we see in the contract that the company does have an incentive to try to reduce costs. Which logically results in a reduced service provided, to use that term, to people in immigration detention or reduced quality of immigration detention.
Thinesh
And we see this play out for the family.
Priya
If I wrote in to request clothes, they wouldn't give it to us. If I requested clothes for the kids, they would give us two items of clothing and say that we couldn't ask for more for another 6 months. I then thought, why bother asking them, I could ask my friends to send us clothes.
Thinesh
And this privatisation of Australia’s detention facilities, also extends to those not in Australia. Behrouz Boochani was held on Manus Island in Papua New Guinea for over 4 years, costing us almost $3.4 million per detainee per year, and he says disease was rampant there.
Behrouz Boochani
Because we were living together because we were living together, hundreds of men together. Also, we were living on the camera for six years. And that is not easy that you live in a small place on the camera, watched 24 hours for many years and we were used to stay in the line to get access to small things, for hours under the sun, for hours for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and in between them, we had to stay in the line to get a like a razor. And they didn't approve razor and these things for sometimes two months, three months.
Jay
Over $3 million a year and they can’t even get a razor? That sounds so bonkers. I don’t understand where all this money is going.
Nades
There’s no way they spent millions on the facility. There were 100 SERCO guards working there just for us. It is the salary, and food for these guards that accounts for the millions. People didn't know this before but people now understand that you do not need to spend millions on four people.
Maeve Higgins
And you know, it's because of these neoliberal economic policies that they are unabashed in their goal, which is to maximize their profits and to expand their business.
Thinesh
This is Maeve Higgins, a writer and journalist who writes a lot about immigration.
Maeve Higgins
When you hear that, you're, "Okay, so that's a clean cut, clinical business opportunity. They're going to maximize their profits." But think about how that looks and feels to the person in detention. Their little daughters, the family, the Nadesalingam family, they can tell you what happens. There's horrible living conditions, lack of medical care, not bothering with any educational opportunities, because they're incentivized not to look after the detainees because that way, they will make more money.
Thinesh
And because it’s privatised, it’s now an industry. Let me just say it again - keeping people in detention is an industry.
Maeve Higgins
I think because by its nature, it's so sprawling. It's also because it's quite deliberately obfuscated. Because it's corporations, it's investors, they're not exactly advertising what they're doing. And already, I understand that I sound a bit, "Hey guys, it goes all the way to the top." But there's really solid research, really solid reporting on this.
Thinesh
Jayby, maybe even your super fund is investing in it.
Jay
Wait, what? really?
Maeve Higgins
Jay
Okay, kind of hard to believe, but also just follow the money and see where it goes, and voilà.
Thinesh
And when you get into this world of investing, you’re talking billion-dollar acquisitions. In 2020, Advent International, a private equity investor, spent 4 billion British pounds to take over Cobham, who operate Australia’s surveillance aircrafts.
Maeve Higgins
I've never bought a four-billion-pound gigantic contractor, but I wouldn't do that unless I thought it was going places.
Jay
It’s not the situation of they bought them, because they didn’t like what they were doing and wanted to stop them. They bought them because they wanted to keep going.
Maeve Higgins
Is it because it's an industry, they are incentivized to trap and hold more people? Because that's the only way they make profit.
Thinesh
And that’s just one example, but it’s safe to say that the industry is huge and growing.
Sara Dehm
Jay
That’s so much more money again, like I can’t even process how much that is.
Sara Dehm
Behrouz Boochani
You should be against this detention industry, because they are wasting your money. They are wasting your money. Australia has spent more than $14 billion of this policy. And where is this money? That money is in the pocket of security companies.
Maeve Higgins
We have to understand this isn't happening by accident. There are people making a ton of money out of this. So we need to face that and we need to decide ourselves, "Okay, is this what we want? We want to live in a fortress, and we want everyone else to be in cages with walls. We want to deport children. We want to actually cause the death of families. Is that... " Because that's what's happening and that's the kind of path, we're on.
Or, how about we look at eliminating some of the causes of forced migration? How about directing some of the resources to that? So I just think reorienting where we're looking is a helpful place to start. And I think we do have families like the Nadesalingam’s who help us to do just that.
Jay
Woah, this is kind of a lot, can we just pause for a second to recap? So, Australia is a leader in privatising detention centres, and the problems with this privatisation are, A, there’s this sort of diffused responsibility from the government, B, the private companies have a profit motive, which means cutting costs and providing services that ensure a large enough margin, and C, we have more people on the move, but we also have more players involved, now including investment funds, where maybe our own money is going to, and they want to make more and more money from this industry, which means they’re implicitly incentivised to keep more people detained and for longer.
Thinesh
I couldn’t have said it better Jay.
Jay
What in the actual fuck.
Thinesh
Now one area where this privatisation has a huge impact is on medical care.
Behrouz Boochani
The immigration officers had control over the nurses and doctors, that even they deprive them to have access to medical treatment.
Jay
So it’s like the detention centre staff are have power over who gets access to medical care, even when doctors and nurses say medical care is required.
Thinesh
Yeah, and it’s this private system that saw 15 doctors ,write a 92 page letter of concern, in 2013. It talked about the shocking standard of medical care for asylum seekers on Christmas Island.
Jay
92 pages, that’s a lot of concerns.
Thinesh
Yeah, they even said their professional integrity was put at risk. And years later, it’s unclear what’s changed because the Nadesalingam’s also face medical issues on Christmas Island. Priya says she starts getting intense nausea and vomiting. She says she gets some injections and liquid that would help for maybe half a day, but
Priya
I wouldn't eat for 2 days. My stomach would swell up and make me look like I was 9 months pregnant. After repeatedly throwing up, they got scared and took me to the Christmas Island Hospital…
Thinesh
Now Iyngaran from the start of the episode keeps in touch with the family, which is handy because he’s also a doctor and works in Aboriginal health. And because Christmas Island is so tiny
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
You know, something like a CT scanner, which is essentially what she needed, that's a basic bit of equipment that you would find in most rural communities, even, in Australia. But, you know, with Christmas Island being so small, even that wasn't available.
Priya
There was a good doctor named Rosemary and she would fight with Borderforce as well as the IHMS doctor saying, 'you keep bringing her to me, her stomach is swollen, she is throwing up. This is the 4th time. There are no further tests I can do. In my opinion, she needs to go to Perth. Then they allowed me to go to Perth.
Jay
Ugh, is this another case of the non-trained medical staff getting in the way of medical care?
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
They're not clinicians. They're not doctors. They're not nurses. They have the ultimate say.
Thinesh
And we’ve seen this before on Manus Island, where one detainee, Hamid Karzai, died partly because of all the delays in getting treatment,
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
And those sorts of consequences could have eventuated for Priya as well. You know?
Priya
They took me to Perth on a medical plane. It was just me that went. Nades couldn't be by my side. For 15 days I didn’t know what was happening. I just had tests. I would be under anaesthesia and have a colonoscopy, endoscopy, CT scans. Everything. My body was not in good condition.
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
Especially, if you're from a culture and linguistically diverse background, or if you are indigenous, having a support person, a family member, with you… that would've been a basic sort of recommendation that we would've made.
Jay
Not having any support with you would be quite traumatising.
Thinesh
And thankfully Priya recovered, but that’s not the end of it. Now Priya says she had further problems, this time with her teeth, but again, it’s a remote Island.
Priya
Specialists would only come to Christmas Island once every three months. As it was COVID, specialists wouldn't even come to Christmas Island. So, I could only see a specialist via video conferences.
But how can a dentist see someone via video conference? After having prolonged toothaches and gum pain, I finally had a root canal done. When it was time to have another follow up appointment, it was very difficult because they were too busy. and then another 6 months would pass.
Thinesh
Priya has since had that tooth removed. But wait, there’s more.
Jay
Wow, more medical issues on Christmas Island?
Thinesh
I know right. This time with their youngest daughter, Tharnicaa, who gets a temperature.
Nades
At that time when Tharnicaa was unwell, we had contacted IHMS multiple times telling them that she had a fever for over 12 days. They kept saying that she is active and that she is fine. I said, you shouldn’t think she is fine just because she is active. Tharnicaa is the type of person that will only rest as a last resort. Otherwise, she will always be active. Whereas Kopika, if she has a light fever, she will immediately get tired and rest. Tharnicaa is not like that. She will only rest if it is impossible to be out and about. Don't let her activeness mislead you - I've watched her grow up and I know how she is. I know how she is at all times.
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
And the one thing we know as clinicians, that you have to take the concerns of parents very seriously. They're the ones that know their kids. They're the ones that are attuned to even the smallest change that might be the warning sign of something really serious happening. So you always have to take parents' concerns very seriously.
And Priya, this whole time. She's fighting with trying to get an IMHS doctor, even to just get the doctor to review her. Just once again, Panadol, that's all they're being given.
Thinesh
On the 29 May 2021, Christmas Island local Robyn has her usual weekly meet up at the rec centre.
Robyn
…and we cut it very, very short and I went, "Oh my goodness. Tharni does not look well. I think you need to take her home and call a doctor, and in the end, it was through Nades getting very, very upset and standing his ground with the immigration management.
Thinesh
After fighting and arguing to get Tharnicaa to hospital, she’s finally admitted,.
Priya
The doctor didn't understand why her fever was not going down. Her temperature was hovering around 40.5 - 40.6 degrees. She would vomit, her temperature was not going down and her face was red.
Thinesh
When we asked Australian Border Force about this, they said sufficient, appropriately qualified service providers are contracted to ensure health and welfare needs are met.
Iyngaran Selvaratnam
And you look at those photos of her on the hospital bed on Christmas Island bawling her eyes out, Kopika trying to comfort her, and it's such an indictment on this country that we allowed this to happen. And you know I can imagine as parents how disempowered they must have felt.
Thinesh
The doctor at Christmas Island Hospital determines that Tharnicaa needs to be treated at a hospital in Perth.
Priya
Her x-rays revealed that she had a chest infection and that she needed further scans to investigate what was wrong and needed to go to Perth. They refused to send both parents. I had a shoulder problem from tendon that was torn 5mm, so I couldn't hold Tharnicaa. So Nades said that he would go and for me to stay. I said that my heart couldn't handle not going. Kopika would also miss her father and cry, so I should go.
Nades doesn't fight like I do. He doesn't argue. He would say 'why are you wasting time talking to people'. He would forget dates and times due to memory loss from being in detention for 4 years. He wouldn't remember what medication our child took or what her temperature was. Otherwise, he’s well spoken and would look after the kids really well too. But when it comes to memory, he would struggle.
Thinesh
Priya and Tharnicaa are medically evacuated on a small air ambulance.
Priya
Tharnicaa had two IVs in both of her hands. As I held her, I could feel her high temperature on my face and chest. That's how high her fever was. It was very hot.
Thinesh
The plane lands and they’re loaded onto a ground ambulance.
Priya
Tharnicaa got worse, her eyes were rolling back, her fingertips were frozen, her face was pink, her lips were purple. It felt like life was leaving her. I took my seat belt off and rubbed her hands, calling out to her, "Tharnicaa, Tharnicaa, look at me, look at your mother".
Jay
I’m getting chills, this totally explains why people like you, and I should not determine when medical attention is required.
Priya
Once we got to the hospital, they were ready and waiting for us. The doctor took her blood and did various tests to give her antibiotics. The doctor called Nades and explained to the both of us that she had a chest infection, blood infection, and pneumonia. Don't be scared but you got lucky because Pneumonia first affects the kidneys, and her kidneys seem to be unaffected and functional.
News Reporting
Three-year-old Tharnicaa is in a Perth Hospital for medical treatment. Dizzy and vomiting her condition only taken seriously after repeated pleas from her parents. Now, they argued that this entire ordeal could have been avoided had she received treatment sooner. There are claims a three-year-old was denied proper care for works. Although, the government insists appropriate care was provided, it denies allegations of mistreatment.
News Reporting
Australian born Tharnicaa will turn four on Saturday, every one of her birthdays has come while in detention.
Priya
Tharnicaa’s fourth birthday happened while she was in the hospital, so we celebrated her birthday over zoom. We had ordered a cake on Christmas Island, which was cut by Kopika on behalf of Tharnicaa. Borderforce also brought a small cake for Tharnicaa to cut while she was in the hospital.
Thinesh
Soon, Tharnicaa starts to get better.
Nades
After that, Tharnicaa would start crying everyday saying " I want my dad, I want my dad. I want my sister. When are you coming. When is my sister coming. You are not coming, why are you staying there.'. I would say "it's not possible for me to come. I will try to come as soon as I can.'
Priya
After the doctors had reviewed her, they said they would try to bring Nades to Perth and that they wouldn't try to send us back to detention.
Thinesh
One morning, Nades is told to pack his things - him and Kopika are going to Perth to be with Priya and Tharnicaa.
Nades
So, I took Kopika to school and said our goodbyes. I told Robyn the flight details. Robyn said, 'okay no problem, Nades, I will come to the airport'. So, Robyn had come to the airport. There were many people there.
Thinesh
Nades is taken to Perth Children’s hospital to reunite with his family.
Nades
The day I saw Tharnicaa, I stayed at the hospital. All four of us stayed in a room at the hospital.
Priya
On 9 June, we arrived to the hospital. On 22 June, we came to the house we are in now.
Nades
It was only when we got to the house in Perth that we were given bridging visas, with Tharnicaa getting a community detention visa.
Jay
Wait, did I hear that right? Tharnicaa is on a different visa to the rest of the family?
Thinesh
I mean technically she doesn’t have a visa, and that’s why she’s in community detention.
Jay
…. why isn’t she given a visa?
Thinesh
We don’t actually know why; all we know is that her refugee status is still in flux. But this effectively means the family has to stay in Perth, under Tharnicaa’s community detention conditions.
Jay
Wow that seems a bit unnecessarily cruel!
Priya
There are 23 rules that must be followed. So, we as parents need to follow those rules. Under Tharnicaa’s community detention rules, nobody can stay the night. We also can't stay at someone else's house. We can't travel to another state. We can't start our own business. We cannot smoke. We cannot drink alcohol. There are many rules. It's not a big change from our situation before - but it's still stressful.
People think that we are out in the community and that we are free, they just can’t see our suffering because it’s now hidden. We can’t take time away to relax or go on holiday or have someone stay with us for the night. This isn’t life. They’ve crushed our independence. I don't think this is necessary. They could just give us a visa and let us live independently.
Thinesh
And she’s right - the real kicker is that the immigration minister could, at any moment, give Tharnicaa that same visa and allow them all to move back to Biloela.
Jay
I mean how can they do that? What are these special powers they have?
Thinesh
So, the immigration minister has this power called Wingardium Leviosa, no it’s called ministerial intervention.
Jay
Ooooh even cooler. Is it cooler?
Thinesh
It’s this god-like power that allows them to basically step in and grant a visa if they deem it’s in the public interest to do so. And they do this all the time, in fact when Peter Dutton was immigration minister, he granted visas to two European au pairs.
Anthony Albanese
…such as peter Dutton himself quoted when he allowed au pairs into the country after representations were made to him. He spoke about the Australian interests, and he used the term compassion.
Jay
Okay, but the immigration minister doesn’t use his powers here, even just for a bridging visa.
Thinesh
Right. And when it comes to permanent visas for asylum seekers, it’s not as common, only a handful have been granted visas after their applications have been refused. So, the family are stuck in Perth with the 23 rules to follow. And life goes on. Nades finds work, first as a cleaner, and then at a restaurant.
But Priya finds the whole situation just incredibly depressing.
Jay
Yeah, fair enough.
Priya
Yes, there is a Tamil community here. I don't want to speak ill of the community, but some feel that we are getting all this help for our case, and they aren't. Others worry that if they socialise with us, they may also encounter visa issues.
I don't like talking about our past again and again. So talking about all these things and reminding my kids is not something I want to do. They don't need to be reminded of our hardships. When they come of a certain age, I will tell them and make them understand. But at this moment, after having suffered for so long, repeatedly talking about it will also have an impact on how they feel.
When I go to the hospital, they would ask for Tharnicaa’s Medicare card. I would say that she didn't have one. They would then ask for a visa, which she also didn't have. One day Tharnicaa asked me "am I not lucky". I asked why she would ask that? She said I don't have a visa or a Medicare card. I asked her who told her that? She said "I heard you say it to the nurse aunty, you said it at the hospital. The uncle said Kopika had a visa." That is when I realised, I shouldn't just speak freely thinking they are kids and won't understand. They are watching and absorbing what we are saying.
We will attempt to go to some place, for example, to a function or a park, not thinking about our past life or our undeserved punishment. But when we do and someone asks about our troubles, it gets very hard. So I don't go to a lot of places. I’ll go shopping, I’ll take the kids to play or show them around, but we go alone and come back alone. For me, once we go to Biloela, our kids will be safe. There we can take next steps. But not knowing what hardships and challenges our kids and I may experience next is what makes me sad.
Jay
So, they’re still stuck in limbo.
Thinesh
And Scott Morrison and Peter Dutton had made it clear that the Liberal National Party would not allow this family to stay in Australia.
Scott Morrison
It’s not about the public mood, its about what is the right decision In Australia’s national interest to ensure the integrity of our border protection regime is maintained.
Jay
But Labor party have been more sympathetic right?
Thinesh
Yeah, they had promised to allow the family to return home to Biloela if they won the 2022 election.
Anthony Albanese
Why won’t the Government let this family go home to Bilo?
Thinesh
And this federal election is right around the corner. For the Nadesalingams, everything rides on this one day of voting.
Priya
Will the current government be re-elected and if so, will we be pushed into danger? Our visa is expiring, what decision are they going to make. When I sleep at night, I dream about the election and immigration. What can I do? This is still stressful. I am not happy here. Our kids are also wondering when they will get to go home to Biloela. After Kopika cut her birthday cake, she said "For Tharnicaa’s next birthday, we will be in Biloela right Appa? Once we go to Biloela, we can all have fun together." I
Thinesh
How did asylum seeker policies become an election platform?
Jay
Heck, how did this family become an election platform? And has their story actually changed the way people te?
Thinesh
That’s next time on You Have Been Told a Lie
Jay
What did you think of today’s episode? Let us know over at @youhavebeentoldalie on Instagram, TikTok, and FaceBook. Because twitter has a character limit for its handles, find us @beentoldalie on twitter.
Thinesh
If you want to see footage of the attempted deportation, as well as the Australian government’s contract with SERCO, the 2012 independent review on SERCO, and Maeve Higgin’s report on border surveillance, you can find links to those at our website youhavebeentoldalie.com, where you can also find all of our references and the transcript for this episode.
Jay
We note that asylum seekers experience a lot of trauma, not only before arriving at our borders, but also living in detention. This has an impact on recollection and details.
Thinesh
Due to the nature of Priya and Nades’s journey across borders, there are some aspects of their story that we will only ever know from their perspective. We have reached out to relevant parties where possible, and where comments were provided, a summary has been included.
Jay
When we reached out to Serco for response, they made a point to mention that Serco does not employ guards, they employ Detainee Services Officers, Welfare Officers, and Programs & Activities staff. Weirdly, SBS, The Guardian, ABC, and even the Department of Home Affairs refer to them as Serco guards. Additionally, It’s also hard for detainees and visitors to know the correct titles for the Serco staff, so you may have heard people in this episode refer to them as Serco guards.
Thinesh
This episode is written by Jay Ooi and produced by Jay Ooi and Thinesh Thillainadarajah, me.
Jay
Audio editing by Jay Ooi, and the audio mixing by Luke Minot.
Thinesh
Tamil translations by Thinesh Thillainadarajah and Neeraja Sanmuhanathan
Jay
Priya’s English translation is voiced by is Emma Harvey and Nades’s English translation is voiced by Matthew Predny, who also composed the music you’re listening to right now.
Thinesh
The Consulting Producer is Rebekah Holt
Jay
Special thanks to Priya, Nades, Kopika, Tharnicaa, the HomeToBilo team, and the interviewees in this episode, Vashini Riswan, Simone Cameron, Angela Fredericks, Nic Dorward, Aran Mylvaganam, Carina Ford, Iyngaran Selvaratnam, Robyn, Dr Sara Dehm, Behrouz Boochani, and Maeve Higgins.
Thinesh
Thanks to Miles Martignoni, Jess Bineth, Cassandra Steeth, and Scott Spark for script and story advice, and Macarthur Amey for helping with research and fact checking.
Jay
This series is possible thanks to the Jesse Cox Audio Fellowship, thank you Que Minh Luu, Benjamin Law, Scott Spark, Jess Bineth, Kali Reid, Clare Holland, and the rest of the team.
Thinesh
There have been many people we’ve spoken to who have helped in so many ways, and many who have asked to remain anonymous. We see you and we thank you for your support.
Jay
This podcast was written, edited, and produced on the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. We acknowledge all elders past, present, and emerging.
Thinesh
We also pay our respects to the traditional custodians of Gangulu country, where Biloela is now situated. This land was never ceded, always was and always will be Aboriginal land.
Jay
On the next episode of You Have Been Told A Lie, we go to Biloela for the 2022 federal election.
Thinesh
Field Trip!
Jay
Do you know about the Murugappan Family from Biloela?
Biloela Community Member #1
Yes, I do.
Jay
Do you think that they should be let back in?
Biloela Community Member #1
I absolutely think that they should be let back here.
Biloela Community Member #2
They should have been kicked out years ago.
Credits
Producer Jay Ooi and Thinesh Thillainadarajah
Consulting producer Rebekah Holt
Writer Jay Ooi
Audio editor Jay Ooi
Tamil translators Thinesh Thillainadarajah and Neeraja Sanmuhanathan
Priya’s English voice Emma Harvey
Nades’s English voice Matthew Predny
Credits music Matthew Predny
Interviewees Priya, Nades, Vashini Riswan, Simone Cameron, Angela Fredericks, Nic Dorward, Aran Mylvaganam, Carina Ford, Iyngaran Selvaratnam, Robyn, Dr Sara Dehm, Behrouz Boochani, and Maeve Higgins
Script & Story advice Miles Martignoni, Jess Bineth, Cassandra Steeth, and Scott Spark
Research & fact checking Macarthur Amey
This series is possible thanks to the Jesse Cox Audio Fellowship